RVTEC 2004 Meeting Minutes

November 3-5, 2004
The Florida Institute of Oceanography hosted the meeting at

The University of South Florida – College of Marine Science, St. Petersburg, FL

Davis Hall, Room 130

 

A copy of these minutes can be downloaded at <200411rvtmi.pdf>.

 

Executive Summary

 

RVTEC met on November 3-5, 2004.  The meeting was hosted by Florida Institute of Oceanography on the campus of the University of South Florida – College of Marine Science, St. Petersburg, FL.  Dale Chayes, RVTEC Chair, presided over the meeting.  The meeting included reports by Agency representatives and UNOLS Committee liaisons.  A variety of issues were discussed.  Progress on the defined Levels of Technician/Instrumentation support was reported.  The meeting also included a variety of technical sessions:

·        ADCP Survey and Performance Assessment

·         Fleet Wide Assessment of Towed Systems

·        Organizational Excellence Driven by Customer Satisfaction

·        Foreign Clearances for Working in EEZ Waters

·        Moving Vessel Profilers

·        System Backup and Restoration, Data Dissemination to Scientists.

 

FIO and USF personnel provided presentations on institution programs including the Alliance for Coastal Technologies (ACT), Coastal Ocean Monitoring and Prediction System (COMPS), and the Ocean Technology Center.  Facility tours were provided to the RVTEC meeting participants.

Reports and the status on various technical efforts were reported.  These included the High-Resolution Marine Meteorology workshop, SeaNet, HighSeasNet, Seawave, VSAT, dragging for a mooring in 4200 meters of water, Radio Frequency Spectrum, RIDGE 2000 and MARGINs cruise metadata requirements, and Healy Communications.  Plans for INMARTECH 2006 were discussed, as the meeting will be hosted by the US.

Elections were held for the RVTEC Chair position.  Dale Chayes was completing his second term as Chair.  The RVTEC membership nominated Bill Martin (University of Washington) to serve as the new RVTEC Chair. 

 

Actions

 

SCOAR Liaison - The RVTEC Chair will send a letter to SCOAR recommending Steve Hartz's appointment as an ex-officio member to serve as a liaison with RVTEC.

 

Definitions of Levels of Technical Support – Develop an on-line form for RVTEC to provide information about Technical services (UNOLS Office).  When the form becomes available it will be posted for RVTEC members to complete.

 

Radio Frequency Spectrum – Individuals interested in participating in this effort should contact the UNOLS office.

 

INMARTECH 2006 – A subcommittee of Barrie Walden (WHOI), Eric Zettler (SEA) and Mary Lynn Dickson (URI) will work to organize the meeting.

 

Safe Working Loads – RVTEC will request that the RVOC Safety Committee address the issue of safe working loads and indicate that a clear definition of “safe working load” is needed. 

 

Appendices

 

Day 1: Wednesday, November 3, 2004

  1. Meeting Agenda
  2. Participant List
  3. NSF Report (Sandy Shor)
  4. ONR Report (John Freitag)
  5. RVOC and Safety Committee Report (Bill Martin)
  6. Fleet Improvement Committee Report (Marc Willis)
  7. UNOLS Report (Annette DeSilva)
  8. Definitions of Levels of Service (Annette DeSilva)
  9. EWING Replacement Vessel Update (Dale Chayes)
  10. Alaska Region Research Vessel (Steve Hartz)
  11. Cape Henlopen Replacement Vessel (Tim Deering)
  12. ADCP Discussion (Stewart Lamerdin)
    1. ADCP PowerPoint
    2. ADCP Survey
  13. 38 kHz ADCP (Michael Carpenter)
  14. Organizational Excellence Driven by Customer Satisfaction (Lynn Wright)
  15. Alliance for Coastal Technologies (Sheryl Gilbert)
  16. Coastal Ocean Monitoring Systems (Cliff Merz)
  17. Ocean Technology Center (Larry Langebrake)

Day 2: Thursday, November 4, 2004

  1. SAMOS Initiative Program (Shawn Smith)
  2. HiSeasNet (Steve Foley)
  3. VSAT onboard RRS James Clark Ross (Geraint West)
  4. Dragging for a Lost Mooring (George Tupper)
  5. RIDGE Metadata (Dale Chayes)
  6. INMARTEC 2004 (Woody Sutherland)
  7. EEZ Clearance Process (Woody Sutherland)
  8. Acrobat Vehicle (Bryan Lincoln)
  9. Scanfish MKII (Dave Nelson)
  10. RVTEC Meeting Location History
  11. Triaxus (Stewart Lamerdin)
  12. SeaSoar (Marc Willis)
  13. MVP Product Information - Brooke Ocean Technology (Arnold Furlong)
  14. KILO MOANA MVP Installation (Steve Poulos)
  15. MVP Fish Loss from DISCOVERY (Geraint West)
  16. SWAP Discussion Presentations (Val Schmidt and Toby Martin)
  17. Data Management Survey Results (Val Schmidt)
  18. MATE Report
  19. Equipment Maintenance Database (Ilya Nikanorov)
  20. Desktop Printed Circuit Board Fabrication (Tom Wilson)

 

Meeting Minutes

 

Day 1 November 3, 2004 –

 

Meeting Called to Order - Dale Chayes, RVTEC Chair, called the meeting to order at 0830.  Florida Institute of Oceanography (FIO) hosts the 2004 RVTEC meeting on the St. Petersburg campus of the University of South Florida (USF).   The meeting agenda is attached as Appendix I.  Introductions were made around the room.  The attendance list is included as Appendix II.

 

Introductory Remarks - Rob Walker, FIO, greeted everyone and went over meeting logistics.

 

Welcoming Remarks - John Ogden, FIO Director, welcomed everyone.  Dr. Ogden gave some background information on their institution:  FIO is a consortium of 17 members including the University of Miami.  FIO is a UNOLS Non-Operator member of UNOLS.  They fund 100 ship days on a competitive basis to members.  Ship time is primarily for educational purposes but there are some days devoted to research mostly in Florida waters.  Dr. Ogden went on to say that, like other institutions, they are trying to build a new ship to stay in the education-oriented niche at $3K/day for a 24x7.  Their campaign for a new vessel has been going on for six years.
 

Agency Reports

 

National Science Foundation - Sandy Shor (Appendix III) - Sandy states that NSF does not have a budget yet for 2005.  NSF is on a continuing resolution until mid-November.  He said to expect a flat budget, plus or minus a percentage or two.  Expect about 3,000 NSF funded ship days this year. Last year was approximately 3,200.


The Instrumentation proposals deadline was three weeks ago. Sandy said he has about two-thirds in hand and says there is no surprises and that he is pleased.  The Technical services proposals are due November 15th but only consist of annual reports this year.  Dolly handled two $20M facility proposals in 2004, one to support acquisition of a new seismic vessel, and the other a replacement human occupied vehicle at WHOI.  The new seismic vessel, Western Legend, will replace Ewing (LDEO) and will be owned by NSF after the conversion to support research operations.  The vessel will be renamed, Marcus Langseth.  The new submersible will replace ALVIN and have a depth capability of 6,500m.  The design and build proposal is funded to be completed in two stages, pending proof of hull welding.  There are extensive oversight committee structures for both efforts.

Sandy also reported that Jim Yoder (NSF) adjusted the NSF budget process so that ship construction up to $25M can be supported mid-size Infrastructure within NSF's program budgets. 

 

Office of Naval Research (ONR) - John Freitag (Appendix IV) - John reports that ONR has a budget for FY2005. Ship time is down approximately 25% this year driven by program demand. Field program work was high last year and is expected to high next year. There are about 525 ship days planned so far for 2005, but will likely go up a bit as the year goes on.


INSURV Associated Science Inspections:  R/V Thompson (UW) was the first Navy ship inspected that included participation by RVTEC members. Seventeen Navy personnel plus four science personnel (Stewart Lamerdin, Marc Willis, Mike Webb, and John Freitag) took part in the inspection, which was declared successful.  Two days of the inspection were held dockside, two were at sea, one day was devoted to the report write-up, and one day was for the Inspection debrief. A round table review (for science,) generated a 75-page report. R/V Melville will be next (in a couple of weeks.) Tony Amos will replace Stewart on the science team (Stewart will be at sea at the time of the Inspection.)


Handling Systems: R/V Kilo Moana has had consistent problems with CTD handling. John said that heavy weather and small ships are, “an accident waiting to happen.”  NSF (Dolly Dieter), and ONR have agreed to fund a study on different handling systems. The study will not only focus on systems used in the US but also on foreign vessels as well.  A committee has been formed (Matt Hawkins, UDel (based on his track record with the lab vans and the R/V Cape Hatteras replacement), Marc Willis (OSU), Jim Holick (RPS), Andy Bowen (WHOI), and Tom Althouse (SIO).  The committee has completed a preliminary (non-UNOLS) report that is not yet public. The first part of the report addresses the Kilo Moana.  John said he is happy to address any questions off the record and also mentioned that the committee visited several foreign vessels.

 

A comment was made that RRS James Clark Ross has a very good CTD handling system, big and expensive, but completely hands-off.

 

Ocean Class vessels: The Science Mission Requirements (SMRs) for the Ocean Class vessels are complete. Hull studies funded by ONR are also complete. The Federal Oceanographic Facilities Committee (FOFC) long-range fleet plan is being updated on the 5-year schedule. The plan calls for the renewal of the Ocean Class.  RADM Jay Cohen announced that he would like to fund the Ocean Class construction from core 6.1 (R&D) money that is quite different than the historical approach.  RADM Cohen Is very Interested In the X-Craft hull form, which were designed a littoral warfare design. He has asked that UNOLS give the hull form serious consideration. A committee has been formed that Includes Ocean Class Steering Committee members and the Fleet Improvement Committee who will visit the shipyard where the X-Craft is under construction. The Admiral says he is open to other hull form approaches as long as the pros and cons have been weighed.  There will be an operator selection process for the Ocean Class vessels soon.

 

 

National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) - Mike Webb - Mike reports that NOAA has two new ships on line.  The USNS Indomitable has replaced the McArthur as the McArthur II.  Several other T-AGOS vessels have been transferred to NOAA over the last few years and integrated into their fleet.

 

R/V Fairweather is out of the shipyard, in Ketchikan, doing charting work in SE Alaska. The Fisheries Research Vessel FRV1, Oscar Dyson has been launched and will be home ported in Kodiak. FRV2, Henry Bigelow, is under construction at Halter shipyards. Both ships were fortunate to stay clear of harm from the recent hurricanes.


The USNS Ship Capable has been transferred from the Navy to NOAA with $18M to convert the vessel for use as an Ocean Exploration vessel.  They are developing the requirements for the conversion.


Mike said that there has been a high turnover of the Electronic Technicians (ETs). Most of their ETs are very new to this business and there is much training needed. There is a feeling in some quarters that “You can just hire people off the street, no problem.” A76 (a contracting out) process is thought by some to be the right answer.


It was noted that the NOAA Ship Townsend Cromwell went to American Samoa to be used but it was sold for 1/2 the value of the fuel that was in it.


U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) - Jon Berkson/ Lt. Cmdr Don Peltonen - Jon reports that heavy Antarctic ice conditions since 2002 have led to a two-ship norm to break out McMurdo Station. Breakout had been 50 - 100 NM of ice compared to nearly 200 NM this year.

 

The propulsion motors on the USCGC Polar Sea have been condemned. It is estimated that it will take two years for the repairs to be made.  The ship is currently dockside in Seattle, WA.  The USCGC Polar Star will deploy shortly.  Its motors are not that much better than Polar Sea but they are “okay.”  The USCGC Healy is fully operational and had a port call in Provideniya recently.
 
Replacement plans: The Ocean Commission’s Recommendation 6-4 says to refurbish or replace the two USCG polar icebreakers. The CG has commissioned Booz Allen Hamilton to do a study, which is due in December 2004. The next step will be to do a mission needs statement and then a preliminary requirements analysis.  The Office of Science and Technology Policy is coordinating a US heavy icebreaker National policy summit that will take place at the same time as this RVTEC meeting. There will be presentations on past and present roles, national needs, agencies, funding, and policy. Participants will include the CG, John Marburger, Dir. OSTP, and NOAA.


John also reports that the Department of Homeland security has their FY05 budget. They have directed funding of a National Academy study on the role of icebreakers. The report should be out by September 2005.

 

Research Vessel Operators' Committee (RVOC) and Safety Committee Report - Bill Martin, UW (Appendix V) - Bill summarized the reports and workshops that were provided during the October 2004 RVOC meeting Special reports were given on the van pool status, the load handling systems, the long core system, research vessel updates, and vessel security requirements (CMMS). Speakers included Dennis Nixon who discussed insurance and liability issues for operators. Bill announced that the medical support contractor for the UNOLS Fleet, Medical Advisory Systems (MAS) was bought out by Medaire, based in Tempe, AZ. 

 

The UNOLS Safety Committee plans to re-write the RVOC Safety Training Manual. The chapters will be reformatted and will be available on the Web including a chapter on hazardous materials.  There will also be a pull out section to give to chief scientists and PI’s. Revised chapters are due January 15th. The assignment list is not quite finished yet. There was a question as to how safe working loads for wires would be addressed in the manual. The wire committee and load handling committee will provide information.  RVTEC members indicated that this is an Important Issue that must be addressed by the re-write.


Fleet Improvement Committee (FIC) - Marc Willis, OSU (Appendix VI) - Marc reports that there is a projected gap between ship days that will be available In the future as compared to the estimated ship days needed to meet future science Initiatives.  His slides include a chart that shows the shortfall.  Fleet renewal efforts are underway:

 

Regional Class - NSF has indicated that they will fund the construction of three Regional Class vessels.  They have partnered with NAVSEA through a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) to acquire the ships using the integrated project team (IPT) approach

 

Ocean Class: ONR is funding a hull form study that will compare the monohull, SWATH, and X-Craft.  The X-Craft vessel is currently under constructions at the Nichols Brothers shipyard In Washington State <www.nicholsboats.com>. UNOLS has been asked for their recommendation and a decision is needed within a very short time frame. Someone from the RVTEC community is needed to participate in this effort and in the shipyard visit on November 17th.


Large ship mid-life refits are coming up soon: Thompson (2006), Revelle (2011) and Atlantis (2012)
A steering committee has been formed to update the science mission requirements for the Global ships.

 

There was then a discussion of Service Life Extension Projects (SLEP.) The operators of UNOLS vessels were tasked to provide SLEP estimates that would not enhance the capabilities of the ships (maintenance only). The estimates range in the price of $1M to $5M per ship for a 5-year extension. The resulting capabilities would be considerably less than that called out by the SMRs, that the science would suffer.


The UNOLS Fleet Improvement Plan update is proceeding as well as the FOFC Long-Range Fleet Plan update.


Marc updated the group on the status of facility design and construction efforts for the Alaska Region Replacement Vessel (ARRV), the Cape Henlopen Replacement Vessel (CHRV), and ALVIN replacement.

 
The Americans w/ Disabilities Act will have impacts on research vessel design. The ADA requirements were considered in the ARRV design. There is not as much guidance in the regulations for research vessels as there are for cruise ships. FIC is reviewing the ADA requirements to determine how they could be applied to research vessels.



Arctic Icebreaker Coordinating Committee (AICC):

Dale reported that:

 

Break

 

UNOLS report - Annette De Silva, UNOLS (Appendix VII) - Annette provided an overview of UNOLS activities and goals for 2005.  She also provided updates of several UNOLS Committees:  The DESSC has been participating in the ALVIN replacement and Hybrid ROV project.  DESSC will meet the day before AGU in December in San Francisco.  The SCOAR Committee is working on developing criteria for broader use and accessibility of aircraft.  Their outreach efforts included an article in EOS and another in Oceanography Magazine.  They continue to work on the format for an aircraft request form that will be modeled after the UNOLS Ship time Request form. 


 Adding a RVTEC liaison to SCOAR has not moved forward since the last meeting. At the last meeting Steve Hartz expressed an Interest In serving as the liaison.  The RVTEC Chair will send a letter to SCOAR recommending Steve Hartz's appointment as an ex-officio member.

 

Scheduling: The global ship schedules will be reduced In 2005 to 280 days with down time in each vessel's home port. There are a large number of deferred ship days slated for 2006.

 

Quality Improvement Efforts continue with reviews of the Post Cruise Assessment reports (PCAR) and debriefs from Kilo Moana. An MTS article on fleet renewal was published.

Information on acoustic/marine mammal permitting procedures is available on the UNOLS web site at: <http://www.unols.org/committees/ssc/permits/permits.html#mamm>.

 

Peter Wiebe from WHOI was elected as the new UNOLS chair and Marcia McNutt from MBARI was elected to the chair-elect position.

 

Definitions of Levels of Technical Support – Annette DeSilva, UNOLS (Appendix VIII)
Annette reports that at the last RVTEC meeting it was agreed to standardize how we communicate UNOLS technical services to the public. A technical services outline was endorsed at the last RVTEC meeting. No additional comments were received from RVTEC regarding the outline. The UNOLS Council has enthusiastically endorsed this approach.  The plan is to develop a fleet-wide database of technical services Information and centrally maintain the information.  Each institution will have to provide their own content.  The timeline to have the system up and running on the UNOLS website is unknown, possibly 6 months.  It will depend on the availability of resources. There are potential conflicts between the offered services and the post cruise assessment via the database and conflicts between the ship time request form and the services that are advertised”. UNOLS is working on a “unified” database that would tie everything together, the ship time request form, the schedule, the post cruise assessment report, and the technical services database.  The plan is to maintain a revision history of changes and perhaps an automatic notification of change service. 

 

The RVTEC was asked to review and if needed update the list of points of contact.  The list will be used to reach the Individual responsible for maintaining the information.

 

Ewing replacement - Dale Chayes, LDEO - Dale displayed the PowerPoint presentation that was provided by John Diebold, LDEO. (Appendix IX).  Dale also mentioned that NSF is returning the Title for the R/V Ewing back to Columbia University so that the ship may be sold.

 

Alaska Regional Research Vessel (ARRV) - Steve Hartz, UAF (Appendix X)
Work is continuing on the acquisition of an Alaska Region Research Vessel (ARRV). Steve reports that they now have an ARRV Website: <http://www.sfos.uaf.edu/arrv/>.   They are also working on solutions to address ADA issues including one ADA stateroom. The ice class is unknown at the moment. The estimated total cost to build the ARRV will be $83M. The operating cost estimate is at $23,800/day. Steve said they expect funding to be included in the NSF/Major Research Equipment & Facility Construction (MRE/FC) request to Congress in 2006.

 

R/V Cape Henlopen Replacement Vessel - (Tim Deering, UDel.) (Appendix XI) - Tim reported that the current schedule is for the Cape Henlopen to be retired from service on October 1, 2005. The shipyard building the new vessel is Dakota Creek Industries in Anacortes, Washington. New construction is done using “modular” build.  The final design phase took place during 2004 and construction is well underway. All major equipment has been ordered and is arriving at the yard. It will start “looking like a ship” in January 2005, when major outfitting should begin.  The new vessel will be delivered from the shipyard to Florida by a heavy lift ship on October 15, 2005. The UDEL crew will deliver the new ship to Delaware. From November 2005 through February 2006 they will cross deck equipment and complete the outfitting of the new vessel using UDEL funding. The new vessel should be ready to begin operations around March 2006. 1230 LUNCH


1320 Meeting reconvened

 

Dale Chayes went over RVTEC meeting trivia.  Candidates for RVTEC Chair and the venue for next year's RVTEC meeting were discussed.  Meeting attendees were instructed to give their money to Annette for tonight’s dinner.


Acoustic Doppler Current Profilers (ADCPs)-  Stewart Lamerdin, MLML (Appendix XI a and b) - Stewart presented a PowerPoint presentation summarizing ADCP survey results from the RVTEC members.  Approximately 50% of the installations include a window. Fouling problems and anti-fouling measures were discussed.


NSF (Sandy Shor) has funded Eric Firing and Jules Hummon through the SOEST ship technician support grant to provide some level of support for ADCPs in the UNOLS fleet. The level of support has not been defined as yet.


Discussion followed on how to quality control the data and questions arose on how to train and how to deal with troubleshooting and technical support at RDI. A comment was made that at RDI, their first level of support has not always been the most helpful. Further comments were that:

-        The vessel-mounted component of their company is a very small portion of their business and there have been quality control problems.

-        RDI does not seem to have much in the way of in-stock spares.

Further discussion items included:

-        How to establish configuration parameters.

-        Broad range of users and levels of understanding on the part of different science parties.

-        The older narrow band transducers had big problems with transducers de-laminating.

-        Design for maintenance.

-        There is a new version of VMDAS coming.

-        Setting up a list-server for this discussion, particularly when Jules gets back (from her current event.) Open source might help move this process forward a bit.

OS38 installation on R/V IB Nathaniel B. Palmer - Michael Carpenter, Raytheon Polar Services (Appendix XIII) - Mike reported that on the Gould Installation there was sand blasting grit was trapped in the well and there was a bubble on the face of the transducer.  Ethylene glycol is being used in the wells on the Gould and propylene glycol is being used on the Palmer. The window is Zelux W (1 and 1/2” thick) and is optically clear (characteristics are provided in the slides). There is a waterline free-surface, no hydrostatic head.

 

Discussion of cables, bend radius, and interference followed.

 

Organizational Excellence Driven by Customer Satisfaction- Mr. Lynn Wright, Architecture for Excellence (Appendix XIV) - Lynn presented a PowerPoint presentation giving an overview of their company’s approach to the process of improving team and organizational performance.

Alliance for Coastal Technologies (ACT) -  Sheryl Gilbert (Appendix XV) - Sheryl provided an overview of the ACT program and the Integrated Ocean Observing System (IOOS)

Coastal Ocean Monitoring (COMPS) and Physical Oceanographic Real Time Systems (PORTS) - Cliff Merz, USF (Appendix XVII) - A presentation on in situ real-time measurements and modeled data was presented.

 

Center for Ocean Technology (COT) - Larry Langbrake, Director of the Center for Ocean Technology (COT), University of South Florida (USF), College of Marine Science The COT Engineering Group are capable of producing, from the ground up, scientific instruments for use in the research milieu, especially targeting the oceanographic environment. COT is capable of production of instrumentation from the conception stage to the actual machining and assembly of the prototypes and prospective production models. Some of the on-going projects include a particle imager, called SIPPER, a profiler, known as BSOP, and an optical platform referred to as the ROBOT.  Information about COT can be found at <http://cot.marine.usf.edu/>.  Larry reported that they started out developing applications to go in AUVs.  Then moved on to in situ mass spectrometers and absorption techniques. Moving on to MEMS so that they can be smaller, less expensive and cheaper.  With the increasing demand for micro or miniaturized devices, COT established its MEMS group. They are able to both develop and micro-manufacture miniaturized devices.  This group is playing an integral part in the development of new systems for scientific instruments and other devices.  They have miniature cylindrical ion traps (500 microns in diameter.) They have a working one in the laboratory at about 10 ppb sensitivity.  COT is working on 3D imaging (acoustic and laser line scan) for port security applications.

 

The day concluded with FIO and USF Facilities Tours.

 

Day 2 November 4–

Meeting business: There are now three candidates for the RVTEC chair position: Lynn Butler (URI), Woody Sutherland (SIO), and Bill Martin (UW)

 

SeaNet - Dale Chayes, LDEO  (for Andy Maffei, WHOI)  - Dale reported for Andy Maffei, who could not attend the meeting.  Dale reports that at present, operational support for SeaNet continues through Laura Goepfert at WHOI.  Future support for the program will be through Jim Aikens At WHOI.

 

Radio Frequency Spectrum – Individuals interested in participating in this effort should contact the UNOLS office.

 

HiSeasNet - Steve Foley (Appendix XIX)

Steve offered some basic background information on the company and what they can offer. HiSeasNet is an IP data link at 96k bits per second. It is not RoadNet, which is software.  The bandwidth is leased so that they can use whatever they want with it.  The hardware to run the system is large and is housed at UCSD/San Diego Supercomputer Center (SDSC.)


The system requires GPS and gyro feed. At the ship end there is a small Cisco router and a 2.4m SeaTel antenna in a 3m-diameter “dome”. At present, current ships using HiSeasNet are Revelle, Thompson and Melville. They will be adding the Ewing Replacement, Atlantis and Knorr.  On the downside, in heavy weather the link fails. Traffic can overload (saturate) the link.

-         Question: How does the “fair” queue get implemented?

-         Question: How can they insure the videoconference of “96K”? (Reply - shut down other services.)  Out going (mostly) only Voice Over IP (VOIP) phone calls.  C-band is $35K/ship/year (bandwidth + support) Limit VOIP to a couple of handsets on the Revelle.

-         Question: How much effort is it to take care of the link?  Shipboard technicians generally handle maintenance from the ship end. There are drifts of satellite occasionally. For Windows, they run a local Windows upd